Talking Point

you and your principles!
moral mr nasheed.

if you really want to stick to your stated principles.........
well the first thing you do is to hand in your resignation,

thanks

I agree with the gist of what you have written.

It is also clear from your writing that you do go through the mv-blogosphere; esp the controversial ones.hehe

The movement that will come to the aid of Dr.Afrasheem and his ilk, and add voice to the chorus of a fundamentally correct Islam, AND at the same time counter the forces aligning themselves to undermine our faith- a battle against both extremes, if you will- is now assembling.
Dr.Afrasheem's efforts will not be in vain.

Dear Nasheed!

CLAP CLAP CLAP! I cant agree with you more...!

A degree from a reputable centre of learning is not a passport to practice one's field. Whether one is a lawyer, doctor, teacher, engineer, pilot or religious scholar etc, there is a need for one to have a license to practice one's field. This is how it is done in most developed countries.

Licenses are given for a specific period and hence need renewal. This is understood as with passing time, knowledge keep changing and advancing. Hence, lack of practice for a year or two would make the person a bit 'rusted'. In such cases, though one's degree never expires, one does require refresher courses to 'top up' and renew one's old practising license.

In the Maldives, some professions in addition to qualifications require to have a license to practice. Some licenses have renewal dates while other licenses are like the degree given for life. There are also many professions where practising licenses are not required. In such cases, showing an acceptable university degree is enough.

Under the New Maldives, I think professionals need in addition to their degrees, a license to practice any profession that involves the Maldivian public. By having a license, the Authority could always withdraw license rather than 'cancelling' or witholding one's preofessional/academic qualification. Licenses should be given for a limited time and renewal should be required once the license expires after the set time period had expired.

Afrasheem has a degree from a very reputable institution, an institution which the Maldives Accreditation Board had recognised as a centre of higher learning. A degree is not enough. He does not have a license to practice in the Maldives what he had studied.

Having no procedure to obtain a local license for local practice is an institutional problem at local level. We need to solve the problem at institutional level instead of frying Afrasheem's degree on a pan.

Well said. You've caught the bull by his horns

Could the problem lie in the education system which does not encourage people to think for themselves? There is a difference between facts and human concepts though the closest we can get to those facts is through critical evaluation of our conception of this world. We might have to rethink about the concepts but that does not make our approach wrong nor questions the existence of those facts. Islam has a rich philosophical background with a great understanding of epistemology. Do our islam tutors back in schools acknowledge this?

Hi Minister,

At last you have spoken. Its sad to notice that Dr.Afraasheem's "problem" triggerred you to write on Professor Saeed's book!! You defend the book, because you needed to defend Afraasheem! What an irony!

Controversy over Saeed's book was in the air for a long time, but you did not notice. Now that you favourite boy is hurt, you came to know the Council made a mistake by banning the book. Many local writers wrote against the Council's decision. Where were you, Hon. Minister?

Forget about Hassan's book and analyse the issues which are external to the contents of the book

1.First he says he has'nt read the section written by his brother.Why ? It is problematic.If its not why should he try to clean his hands off the whole issue.

2.Next,he says Mr.X does not know Arabic or Mr.Y does not know English.Who cares ? What matters is the strength of evidence presented,not one's age,his degree,or whether someone has a beard.During the time of Umar(ra) a woman corrected him when he made a mistake.The woman was not questioned whether she has a phd.

3.Next his brother being a professor in some university is not a proof of his views being correct.Perhaps the reason why he is in such a post might suggest something else.

4.Maldives have'nt executed people for apostasy.So why bring up this issue?

5.Indirectly this books implies the following
- the Sunnah is a weak source
- the ijma of companions is not reliable

Dear Nasheed.

Couldn't agree with you more! Well said.

azak: What in Mullah's name was that? :)

yasir: I completely agree with you. I even wrote about this sometime back, including my personal experiences. As it is, there is a huge number of people who believe Shekus knows best and should not be questioned. Unfortunately it is so hardwired into their systems that don't see anything else. Sorry state of affairs.

Dear Nasheed
I fully support you on this. And I salute you for saying all this being a Minister. You have the courage to say all this so openly while political parties who claim to be liberal and democratic fails to deliver these basic rights when religion is concerned.

We all need to do something about our beloved nation before it becomes another Afghanistan and Afraasheen is one person who says things that make sense and logical.

Nasheed keep up the good work.

y so hurt? you are getting personal i think. but good points. think nation can be think person. visnaashey meeha. i agree azaks last paragraph.

I don't want to open a can of worms here, but I have got to say something about the first point below.

[quote]
5.Indirectly this books implies the following
- the Sunnah is a weak source
- the ijma of companions is not reliable
[end-quote]

What I have been taught and what I have seen/heard (including by habi types) is that the Sunnah was a recitation from father to son type of thing. The earliest compilation was made about 200AH (some other well know texts date even later). And as the saying goes - a few thousand were selected from a few hundreds of thousands as authentic (I recall seeing 3000+ authentic derived from 400,000 - even 600,000).

Even assuming that this collector was super-human and had a huge research department working under him (say 20 persons) working 6 days a week and checking 2 per day (highly optimistic and unlikely considering the conditions of those days) - it still takes over 30 years to do 400,000.

Then, after all this, theres the strong authentic, weak authentic etc.

I do not claim the Sunnah has no authentic hadees. I don't have a problem with the assumption that the reciters are good people.

But the fact is, the derivation of Sunnah is WEAK - period.

There is no court, including Islamic courts AFAIK, that accept hearsay (I heard he say another person said this and that).

Best Regards.

Dear minister,

does this mean anybody who can produce a medical degree from aborad (even a recogined university) can just come to male' and start a private practice.

now back to the point of religion, now if it is the way you say, extremists like sheikh fareed and corrupt extremists like sheikh rasheed will have a field day and the people will be more confused than ever.

Minister Nasheed had been promoting the Bidua Scholar - Dr. Afrashim - since he came back to Maldives after his doctoral studies. Nasheed has mentioned "whimsical fancies of a single cleric" referring to Sheikh Muhammad Rasheed Ibrahim. However, that reference should be Maumoon Abdul Gayoom, since he rules over the President of Supreme Council.

If Afrashim was harassed by one-year-bar rule so are all the other scholars. Minister Nasheed, you have to broaden your knowledge. If Afrashim is being appreciated by the nation there would not have been many complaints against him to Supreme Council and the populace fleeing from the mosques in flocks when he leads Prayers.

And I am sure you will be very aware of Sheikh Fareed's predicament. Educated from an institution reognised by country but for delivering lecture after cancellation of his license, (without licence, thus equivalent to Afrashim) he is arrested and is yet to be released whilst Afrashim is free despite giving religious lectures without license and Supreme Council repeatedly asking him not to. Double-standard is the norm in the government where you are filling the cabinet minister post.

The book by Dr. Hassan and his brother is censured for political purposes only. And the real culprit behind this orchestration is no other than Maumoon. All Maldivians know this very well.

In response to GG's comments, I agree that one should not say Mr X knows English and Mr Y does not know Arabic, or whatever. Hassan Saeed's press release said so, but I do not support that particular part of the press release.

However, having read the book written by two Saeeds, I don't think there's any room to ban the book. All the islamic scholars agree that it is a controvorsial issue. Umar bin Khathab did not impose a death penalty to an apostate. However, in Islamic History, there has been cases of imposition of death penalty to apostates.

The important point here is we need to contextualize on how we interpret Koran. Most of the islamic scholars disagree on the imposition of death penalty to apostates.

[quote]
I do not claim the Sunnah has no authentic hadees. I don't have a problem with the assumption that the reciters are good people.
[/quote]

So there you go.The aim of the book has been achieved.Period

Forget about the apostasy

GG, I too have read the book, and in ma opinion, the book only goes on to say that certain hadiths used to justify the killing of an apostate is weak. Its a known fact that there are weak, or strong hadiths, a fact recognized by liberal and conservative scholars alike! Some Sunnas, which are based on hadiths are openly questioned, while the others are championed... why the double standards by learnt sholars if they beleived that all hadiths or sunnas are a stong source for Religious Interpretations??
Are you sure that, in Ijma, or the collective agreement of scholars, cannot be questioned by some unrelated scholars? An ijma is an agreement, an ijmah is not sunnah, or quran, which leaves doubt. An agreement by the the large number of learnt scholars could be called an ijmah, which means that there might be some disagreements as well, and why cant Dr.Abdulla disagree?
The book points out that there is no mention of a death sentence for an apostate, and i guess it should be left to learnt sholars to come up with an ayah where it states so!

What do you mean by "I am a believer in Allah. I am a follower of Islam. I feel sad when my religion is distorted. I feel bad when my religion is ridiculed".You’re sad because of What? Aren’t you happy since other people are ridiculing Islam? Aren’t you providing the means to distort and ridicule Islam by promoting people like Afrasheem? You don’t have to agree with this since most Maldivians know who you people really are.

About the two brother’s book on Apostasy, I think you should also be fully supporting the ban imposed on that book by the Supreme council on Islamic Affairs, since it’s a book which is trying to justify nonsense such as “….It concludes that such a punishment conflicts with the ethos of the Quran and the practices of the prophet, as well as with the needs of the modern period”.[Page,3 freedom of religion, Apostasy and Islam].
If the type of Islam you are following is this type of of Islam, the true Islam has no use for you unless you follow and practice Islam for what it is.

Dear Nasheed,

Can you explain to me in simple plain english what you mean by "moderate" views on Islam? As far as I know calling, advising and pushing people towards things that are outside the fold of any system (let alone Islam) does not qualify one to be acting wthing the boundaries of that system! There are factual evidences that your respected "moderate" scholar has encouraged fellow Maldivians to call upon the dead and pray to allah through the dead! May be this is moderate to you, but for any sane person who has got the slightest bit of knowledge of Islam will know that it is by no means a "moderate" act! May be his views on Islam are "moderate" to you because his views suit you and you do not care too much about what Islam says about the various things he preaches! As far as I know the only two sources of reference for any Muslim on matters of Islam are the Holy Qur'an and the autheticated Hadhith of the beleoved Prophet(s.a.w), and perhaps for those of you who have other references from somewhere else, his views on Islam could be "moderate"!
Perhaps you even do not know the meaning of the word "moderate"!!!
So I feel sympathy for you for exposing yourself for who you are...!

Muiz:
I can't answer for someone else but I'll tell you what I think is extreme.

1) Giving too much importance to growing a beard and styling it in a particular way 'cos of religous beliefs -> extremist

2) Giving too much importance to the height of covering cloth below the knee (doesn't matter how high the socks is) 'cos of religous beliefs -> extremist

3) Women wearing black only -> extremist

4) Women covering the face -> extremist

5) Amputations, Stoning -> extremist

6) Belief in a higher religious authority (the human type) -> extremist

7) Adhaalath Party -> extremist

8) Supreme council of islamic affairs -> extremist

9) Those who say now i'm murtadh for saying this -> extremist

Phew. I think that should do for now.

@Riyaz:
You have shown that you do not know anything about hadith collection at all!

In islam things are not defined by what you think or feel, instead, everything in islam is based on proofs with testable evidences!

Thus i advise you to take some time and learn about it before you spread your falsehood!

Regards

Dear Ahmadey and MHH

What about the fact that Hassan said about he has not read the first half of the book? Can someone co author a book and be not aware of one part? Leave aside the science of hadith,Islamic jurisprudence and analyse this point.I dont think such common sense issues can be categorised as 'issues only for scholars'

I was talking about the ijma of companions,not ijma of scholars.The book does not revolve around the textual analysis of Hadith or Quran,but more on the compatibility of Islam with Human rights or UN charter.

Dear nasheed

I can agree your comment regarding the both issue, actually this is a political game, may be you also involving this two issue because you are the governemnt senior two take a dicition or to submit the comment to avoid this case,
in my opinion every one has to be under rule of law , to obey it , to rule it,and to accept the basic principle of the comunity,
thanks
man of the sea

the governemt have to reponce to failior of adopting to strong faith of islam to the community,each of the failior comment regarding the islam the government is strickly denie

Muiz,I think in everything we do and say should make sense. I think people should know its high time they left their camels and goats and start a good living. You don't need Iraqu dhandi (whatever)now as there are better substitutes. Even Bin Laden prefers a AK47 to fight his enemies rather than a sword. He is using satellite phones and high tech computers for communication. The Talibans in Maldives are still way behind.

The 'weak' hadith which people are talking about are still stronger than opinions coming from the proponents of human rights and freedom.The same freedom which drove an Austrian father to enslave his daughter and father 7 child from her.

Muiz:
By your account, I count 2 of my Islam teachers and one Supreme Council of Islamic Affairs member who has LIED to me :)

[quote]
In islam things are not defined by what you think or feel, instead, everything in islam is based on proofs with testable evidences!
[end-quote]

OMG! Where are these magical "proofs and testable evidences!"

And adhaalath party's stance on the book issue is most laughable.Their senior Sheikh(or Arabic expert) said that he cant comment on it because he does not know English.But that does not prevent him from meeting foriegn ambassadors and foriegn medias to give updates about maumoonu.

There is no-one who doesn’t crave for power.
At first Anni the so called master mind behind igniting the dictator to think of reform agenda , told everyone in MDP haruge’ that he would step down once the parliament passes the law on formation of parties, but once it passed he told everyone that he plans to be there for another 90 days or so till everything finalized, why didn’t they finalize things before that?

If you wait and think you will know that this is what happens when someone tastes the blood of power, Than Anni decided that he wants to be the chairmen of MDP, he then forced IBRA out and then Munna-bhai, if we again analyze this we will know this is the same problem with our dictator.

Now Analyze Ibra and Munna-bhai they too want power, Ibrahim Hussain Zaki is much more intelligent than these guys, he has decided to wait and watch, then after the waves settle he plans to take the reign of MDP.

After going through the thoughts of Maldivian politics I have decided myself that there won’t be any knight in shining amour to rescue the people of Maldives.

So go to hell with all these power mongers, be it DRP, MDP, ADALATH, IDP or anyone for that matter.

PS: Ask IDP president, UMAR NASEER for the phone number of the “GIRL” he provided for the American who came to male’ 2 years ago to invest in fisheries project? Ask him to stop providing young Maldivian girls to foreigners to get what he wants.

gg:

[quote]
The 'weak' hadith which people are talking about are still stronger than opinions coming from the proponents of human rights and freedom.The same freedom which drove an Austrian father to enslave his daughter and father 7 child from her.
[end-quote]

Hmmm. I didn't know "human rights and freedom" allowed a father to enslave his daughter and do etc. Can you tell me where I can find it?

Defies belief that people have such ignorant views or even believe such BS - in this day and age.